Building with Mass Timber: The Future of Cochrane Commons

Welcome back to the Innovative Real Estate Podcast! In this episode, we are pulling back the curtain on one of our most exciting developments yet: Cochrane Commons. We dive deep into the background of this project, exploring its planned social impact, community amenities, and how we are designing dynamic new retail and live/work spaces just steps away from major city landmarks.

We also discuss a massive industry shift: our pivot to Mass Timber construction. We break down exactly what Mass Timber is, how its sustainability benefits stack up against traditional building typologies, and the surprising science behind its fire resistance and acoustic properties. Plus, we highlight the incredible research coming out of Michigan State University, look to Europe's advanced forestry practices for inspiration, and confront the industry’s resistance to changing legacy construction methodologies. Tune in to see how we are building for longevity and the economy of scale!

Episode Highlights

• The community vision and social impact behind Cochrane Commons.
• What is Mass Timber? Benefits vs. traditional construction.
• The surprising science of Mass Timber's fire resistance.
• Michigan State University’s groundbreaking Mass Timber research.
• Overcoming the industry’s resistance to changing building methods.

View the full Show Notes for episode 82.

Learn more about Cochrane Commons HERE.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Why aren't we working with mass timber?

SPEAKER_00 0:02

Oftentimes our industries here don't like change.

SPEAKER_01 0:06

The more you standardize a building system, it's just a trickle-down beneficial effect.

SPEAKER_00 0:10

It fits within who we are as a firm.

SPEAKER_01 0:19

Welcome to another episode of Innovative Real Estate with 3Squared. Today we are going to be talking all things Cochrane Commons and our switch to math timber construction. So I'll start by giving a brief synopsis of why we decided to make this switch. So, first and foremost, we were offered an opportunity to speak at the Tall Timber exhibit in downtown Detroit that was put on by MSU. And in that space, we gave a presentation about our development called Cochrane Commons, which is directly behind the three-squared office. That's where Leslie and I are calling in from today. And since we work with prefabricated methods of construction, we thought, why aren't we working with mass timber? It's craned in place exactly the same way that we would crane containers into place. It's prefabricated in a facility off the project site and shipped onto the project site. It's a lot of logistics coordination. It's very similar to everything that we practice. So now we're putting in this ecological, biophilic building material into our own practice. Leslie, do you want to switch us into a little bit of additional background about Cochrane Commons and what this project entails?

SPEAKER_00 1:31

Absolutely. And actually, before I even deep dive in there, we are missing Brett Crandall today, everybody. And it's because Brett Crandall, one week ago and one day ago, eight days ago, became a father. So we miss him, Brett. We wish you were on this call, but we're doing a good job. And we're just going to kick ass on this call, but we do miss you, all right? Okay. Hey, Eero. All right. That's his first public mention. Okay. Hey, everybody, we're very excited about our Cochrane Commons project. We've talked a lot about it over the last several years, but we've gotten a lot of traction. And more importantly, we are in pre-development officially. And what that means is we are on target. And if we can get a close get closing to the table this year, we're breaking ground this year. We're fighting very hard to do that. But what this project is, uh, it's again, Jill mentioned it's behind our backyard. When we brought this to the city, you know, it started out as a three-story high building, lots of mixed use. So some commercial blended with a lot of the neighborhood uh interests. And we as a firm decided to break it into two. So phase one, we want to get something built. That's the key. And so in by presenting this to the city and also presenting this to our team of super smart people, we made some big decisions. So we've gone up an extra story. So it's now a seven-story building. The first floor will maintain and contain all of our commercial spaces. We're really doing what we can based on our community support to increase our um our social impact to the North Corktown and the Corktown communities, meaning we need a small grocer, we need some cafe that people can stop in at and have social activities, and also create a place even on the rooftop for gatherings. And so we also have inside, you know, a cafe, a grocer, really capturing social impact right now. But at the end of the day, we will also have six live work spaces. Why is this important? The first ground, adding to the commercial space to have some smaller tenants who might want to live in their spaces, right? A live work space means, hey, I've got some living space, but also I am licensed to do business on my bottom floor or in another area of my live work space, open up a small shop. And so we're excited about that piece because we don't have many live work spaces in the city of Detroit. On top of all of that, we are creating 101 residential units. Those will be a mix of corporate housing, workforce housing, in addition to affordable housing. And when we go to the city for our final plan review, we're updating that. We need an additional approval for that process. We are bringing in some two-bedroom units, not just studios and one bedrooms. It's really important. We need to address the Detroit's missing middle and then also support family-oriented housing. And that's really important to us. That's what came out as a part of all of our community outreach and our community meetings. And in order to get the community involved, you know, we opened up our hearts, we opened up our entire playbook, super transparent. And as a result of that, we we received, I can't even tell you, some amazing feedback. And we take it serious. When we asked questions, we wanted true answers. And if we can fulfill those responses, it's in our highest and best interest to do so. But our programming elements, again, they do include retail, co-working, our live workspace, and I'm going to drink water, and then Jill can kind of hop in here and finish a little bit more.

SPEAKER_01 5:46

Yeah. So what I want to emphasize here is city support for a passion project by a female company-owned developer. So we are our own developer in this project. We are also the architect of record, and so we're practicing what we preach and doing a lot of things that are at the heart of our company that mean a lot to us and the local community. So a lot of city support and community engagement support. So our development, just to kind of orient you guys, we're directly north of the 75 Freeway off of Pine and Trumble. So we are considered North Corktown. And the commercial corridor is pretty much south of us. And it is kind of walkable, but it's kind of far from the North Corktown neighborhood. So the residents here and us being residents of that neighborhood realized we're going to kind of need more commercial spaces to support the residents here. Whereas the boundary of North Corktown was supported to be overall larger developments, which is why we proposed that seven stories. We're protecting residents against the 75 freeway. And we are supported by a taller building in this area.

SPEAKER_00 6:54

And I think also the really key here is our close proximity to Michigan Central, 2,112 steps to be exact. In addition to just being south by maybe 1.2 miles from Henry Ford Hospital, another key, you know, boy, the the construction that they're doing right now at Henry Ford. But again, we are 1.3 miles away from Comerica Park and just 1.1 mile away from uh Caesars um uh Little Caesars Arena. Little Caesars Arena, thank you. I knew it was there. Pizza Arena. Pizza Arena. But then, you know, also downtown, all the city buildings. So we're we're we're very fortunate to be close and be such a just a hub of all things Corktown, North Corktown, and hoping really to bring together these communities and to support both communities. And I think when you go into our lobby, you will see how we're really wanting to embrace this entire community here. It's very exciting. And the city is behind it, the city has given us the path on moving forward. So imagine my surprise as a developer putting the pro forma together and looking at all the numbers. You know, this project quickly came, you know, from a 40 million up to now we're at a $57 million project. How do you make it pencil? And when you're adding materials like mass timber, because I have heard everybody who says, well, it's too expensive, Leslie, you can't make it pencil. Well, I'm gonna highly disagree with that. And there are ways to get mass timber into this project, there are ways to do it smartly, and there are ways to do it where it actually adds such a sustainable component that it it elevates not just the building itself, but also it elevates its energy efficiencies. So at three squared, everybody should know this by now. We care about we care about sustainability. We also care about what buildings cost and the cost of the building after it's built. I can't tell you how many times people complain. We hear it all the time. Hey, I have to make a choice if I'm gonna pay my utilities or my rent or mortgage, or I'm gonna have to cut someone short, or I'm gonna have to to to bring in a lot of more blankets in my house. At the end of the day, we can do things smart. And when the team came to me, I was a doubter. I was a huge doubter on this. Uh, are you kidding me? And I think there was another word in between in that sentence, that we are going to include mass timber. I got to share with you, I believe we can make it work. I uh it won't be a hundred percent um of a of a mass timber building. It's gonna be a hybrid approach, but super smart in its hybrid approach that we've taken, just like we've done from containers, right? Uh when we first started, our niche was uh cargo architecture, building with containers. We've also added a very cool type of panelized SIP panels that are foam, still steel uh structured and steel reinforced. Now we are embracing another sustainable, another energy efficient and I believe affordable option to this community. So, Jill, I want to ask you now, why do you think, I mean, like when we switch from containers into mass timber, um why was it important for us to do this?

SPEAKER_01 10:42

Yeah, um, so I want to highlight what you had touched on, stating that it's a hybrid construction. So it's going to be a steel frame for the overall building structure, and then CLT, which is cross-laminated timber, floor plates. So the floor and ceiling are what those CLT panels are comprised of. Those are three ply, five ply, seven ply billets. They all come in odd numbers because it's some tube eyes that are sandwiched together, glued, and then there's another layer parallel on top of that. So a minimum of three layers for CLT panels. Those are just craned directly into place. You can set about 20,000 square feet in just one day utilizing a crane. So, really, the key there is the cost savings in the time reduced during construction. That's the real reason to utilize mass timber. There are other benefits to it that just kind of like snowball effect on top of all of the other positive benefits of building with mass timber. You're you're being uh carbon efficient, you're doing good things for the environment. Uh, it's a beautiful building typology to live in, but we're really trying to hone in on make it make sense where we implement mass timber panels.

SPEAKER_00 11:53

So you said 20,000 square feet in a day. How wild? It is super wild. I thank you for reminding me of that statistic because that means the cranes don't have to be here so long, which is that huge cost, right? And it's actually saving when you save time on these large projects, you are saving money. 20,000 square feet. I mean, that uh theoretically, we could lay all of our floors and ceilings, and and this is not a joke, in about two and a half days.

SPEAKER_01 12:25

Exactly. And so obviously you have to factor in some contingencies for weather, because in Michigan you just never know what you're gonna get. But ideally, you're gonna be in a solid weather condition, having your building frame up within just a few days, which is where the intensive cost savings come in and why it makes sense to pivot to mass timber. So mass timber construction, I just want to emphasize and back out a little bit because we kind of breezed over what the overall definition of mass timber is, because it's such a buzzword these days. So it's a prefabricated innovative building material using prefabricated wood that's engineered in a facility off-site. So you're reducing the amount of waste because you're using a panel that's prefabricated to a specific size, using a structural bay that's established beforehand, all increasing the efficiencies of the building, increasing efficiencies on the job site, and resulting in a more cost-effective building.

SPEAKER_00 13:23

So it just makes sense. It does. And you're actually even beating containers and those prefabricated panels, the foam and steel reinforced panels. I mean, it's like three to one. You can get three, it's crazy what you're just what you just shared. Um, and one fact that I never knew until we started doing the deep dive is that contrary, it's just an oxymoron, they don't burn. I mean, they burn, but they won't burn through. This mass timber has such a great fire rating. Help me wrap my head around that.

SPEAKER_01 13:59

Yeah, so obviously a building has got to be structurally sound. So to meet building code, you have to have a specific fire rating. So with mass timber, you have a char layer, which essentially means that if your building catches fire, it's wood. Everyone thinks it's gonna go up in flames and crumble down in just a short amount of time. That's not true because you have to have additional wood for your char layer. So that means that your your building structural elements are going to be structurally sound despite an exterior of your of a mass timber column is going to be able to burn for a certain amount of hours, which means your building can still be structurally intact. Now, our structure is going to be steel, so obviously steel is still gonna have to be fire coated to meet this building code, but overall, uh, mass timber does have a much more effective fire rating, such as three-hour fire resistance, which is it. I mean, I know it sounds like an oxymoron, but it does have a better rating than people think.

SPEAKER_00 15:03

Huge. It's huge and it's beautiful, it's just beautiful. Can you talk and address any of the sound quality since we're using this as a floor and ceiling?

SPEAKER_01 15:12

That's a great question because a lot of people forget that mass timber is actually lighter than you'd think. So because it's light, you can liken it to the way that we address bounce in shipping containers. Leslie, for 40-foot shipping containers, we need interstitial support to address the bouncing because buildings bouncing are not comfortable. It doesn't feel structurally sound, even though it is. And so with mass timber uh CLT panels, you do need you do need additional weight to address and reduce that bounce, but also to support the acoustics. So you actually need a concrete topping on top of your plywood, um, which means that you're only only going to end up having the CLT exposed in the ceiling of a unit. The floor of the unit above is going to have a concrete topping or a jip crete, whatever type of floor finish you want. But it actually needs additional weight to reduce the bounce and support the acoustic requirements that are required per building code. That's amazing.

SPEAKER_00 16:13

So in the factory, can they do that? Can they add anything there that's in the factory that would be even? I mean, it's this great subfloor, but can they do something like that that might even speed up our construction? This is and I'm not trying to put you on the spot. I don't have an attachment to the answer, but I love that question because it's all a process.

SPEAKER_01 16:31

So in theory, yes, you can in in the factory, but the amount of time that it takes in a factory versus just pouring gypcrete on a project site, it makes more sense to just do it on the site. Because the post-processing of combining those panels, if you individually jipcrete each panel and then you have to combine the seal in between, that's actually going to take longer than just pouring it on the job site. Amen. Thank you.

unknown 16:57

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 16:58

We wanted to learn something on our call today. It's so true. You know, it's it to me, it really is fascinating because of now all the additional research that our amazing team. We've brought in some amazing consultants, guys, that are so smart and just uh and and we've got Michigan State, correct? MSU, correct. MSU, thank you. Didn't want to uh didn't want to mess up that. But they've been such a great leader in the research and development of mass timber. And what I found interesting is the amount of resources they are putting in to this typology of construction building materials. It's been amazing. Do you know why they chose to do that?

SPEAKER_01 17:45

Well, first of all, I just want to give a shout out to our partners at MSU, such as Sandra Lupion. Um, our connections have really helped us. We've got some great resources here in Michigan, and I'm pretty proud of the advancement that we've gotten in this state because, for example, uh, Gretchen Whitmer actually created a memorand of understanding with Finland. So we have some Michigan delegates that have done study abroads in Finland to bring some of that knowledge back to our state here. And that's where I connected with a lot of entities that are doing Mass Timber Forward projects in Michigan. And I drank the Kool-Aid and I brought it back to my team, and now my team is drinking it. It's pretty great. It's trickle-down effect. So at Mass Timber, there's a really great forestry program. Uh, there's a research lab on lignin, which is another structural element of sealing uh CLT panels together rather than using glue. You can use lignin, which is a byproduct of the wood itself. However, it's still got I know, it's still got some ways to go in building codes, so that's why it's not more commonly used. But you need research in order to implement these new innovative testing. So uh there's just a really great program there where they they advocate for mass timber and construction, and they've they've got research, education, and outreach programs to implement sustainability in your building practices in the state of Michigan.

SPEAKER_00 19:03

And what I also found very interesting and exciting is that they've also developed through the uh Department of Forestry, USDA, some grants to provide an incentive for developers to create buildings and to utilize wood, right? Now, in the past, I just want to really talk about this because in the past I've always talked about saving trees, right? Like how do we do that and how do we harvest wood sustainably? Jill, you want to talk about that just for a little moment? Because I think it's so important. On average, a single house can utilize 22 to 25 trees in their building materials. And to try and get a straight two by four, which isn't really a two by four anymore, you would think, I mean, it's it's easier to find um Bigfoot, I think, than to find that true two by four these days. So tell me a little bit more about why it is sustainable when we are, you know, proponents of such sustainability, saving the planet, saving trees, et cetera.

SPEAKER_01 20:11

I love that you asked this question because I myself, like when you think of a clear-cut forest, it's kind of like a jab at your heartstrings. Like it's really sad to see you don't want to cut down these trees. However, privately owned forests are really effective at sustainable forestry management because trees are like people, they have an age where they start to get too old and become frail and they're gonna either fall down or they're gonna burn. And so you think about forest fires and how much more common those are becoming. If you thin a forest, it's better practice because you're not clear-cutting, you're hand picking trees of a different age group and not cutting them all down at once. You're just doing little chunks at a time and then replanting as you go. So that's something I really took away from some of my studies is that in Finland, they actually have more trees now through their forestry program. Even though they're cutting down trees, the replanting allows for regrowth that's faster. And because of these little sparse pockets that you're cutting down and replanting as you go, it actually results in a healthier forest. So you're reducing the likelihood for forest fires by maintaining and cutting down trees and utilizing the existing source before it becomes a risk to the environment.

SPEAKER_00 21:35

You know what was really interesting along with that is we were thinking about maybe doing the whole building, right, in mass timber. Correct. But because of the limit or the the smaller amount of of wood in the United States, talk a little bit about that because some of it would have had to come from abroad.

SPEAKER_01 21:57

Well, yeah, a key component there is that. Your structure being mass timber results in some glue lambs, um, some overhead beams that have a larger depth. Glue lambs are the most expensive mass timber element. And so it makes more sense to utilize steel where we can in order to create a more balanced cost while implementing a mass timber constructed building. So I want to touch on why does wood tend to be cheaper in Europe, which Leslie, I think you were alluding to here. Yes, as opposed to sourcing our wood from more local sources. Correct. So European systems have been around significantly longer, and the US has come a long way in the past three to four years, but we still still have a lot further to go in order to catch up with where Europe is. And I think that the key there is that Europe's economy is stimulated by the mass timber workforce that they have. So it makes sense that people would be more supportive of implementing mills and product harvest, implementing forestry practices there versus in the US, each state has different practices. It's a lot more conglomerated. There's a lot more decision makers, there's a lot more different governmental policies. So we're lucky to have a great forestry program in Michigan and our own red pine resources. But if there's differing rules, differing opinions, it's a lot more difficult to get on the same page. And so that's why programs such as MSU, getting that learning lessons out there to the public about why this building typology is feasible in a really healthy way to build for the future. It's just it's gotta make its way to the masses. And I think that we're starting to get there. And I'm really proud that we get to be an implementer of that practice.

SPEAKER_00 23:48

Yeah, you and me both. And you know, as um Three Squared has always been that firm that does take the extra time to research and to do things different. I am oftentimes I all want to say just a little jealous how far Europe, the European countries are more ahead of us. And I feel that oftentimes our industries here don't like change. And I it's like pulling teeth to have a shift, not just in the way we do things, but the way we think and go about these beautiful and incredible methodologies that exist. We are not, you know, we're not brand new at this. I mean, it's uh mass timber has been around. They've really done it quite a bit, but here it it it does make it a little less affordable because it's not as common and we still have to, you know, bring things over from overseas if you want a full 100% uh building out of out of mass timber. But at the end of the day, I'm I'm all about this. Like let's it fits within who we are as a firm and to stay on to be good stewards, right? And to really make, I believe, uh architecture, new construction, and to really push the limits of what can happen. At the end of the day, this building will last more than 30 years. At the end of the day, this building will be super energy efficient. It will cost a lot less to heat and cool your building than are traditional buildings that, I mean, we've seen some down here. They're not going to last. I don't, I'd be shocked if some of these houses that were new, newly built around the corner last 30 years. I would not be proud of producing a product like that.

SPEAKER_01 25:49

I I think Leslie, that's a really important factor that sets you apart as a developer because you're not just thinking about how the project pencils, you're thinking about the end user and the quality of life and the environment that they have in order to pay their monthly bills, which you had touched on earlier in this call. Luckily, we've had some clients as developers that have taken some really great stats on products that they've developed and built through collaboration with Three Squared. They've taken monthly bill analyses and said, look at these building typologies between shipping containers, SIPS, panels, modular, and new energy construction, and who has the more balanced out billing per month for the end user and what's the longevity of that building. So it's all factoring in much more than just how much does this cost to build.

SPEAKER_00 26:40

It really is about the cost of the building, and it's not just the first while it during construction, it's in its longevity. You know, we talk about this often about, you know, when you when you're when you're when you've got a pro forma and a construction budget, I can tell you the first things that go, and you know, people decrease all the quality of items. And at the end of the day, I really think this project's gonna pencil. We have a smarty pants on team um doing our pro forma and our capital stack. And it is a complicated capital stack because we are pulling incentives from everywhere so that we can make this pencil. It's costing a lot more, uh, a little bit in time and in dollars, but man, it's gonna be worth every single nickel. It really is. I'm really proud of this, super proud. You know, we've got you know, mass timber, it's speed, we're gonna save money there. Uh we've got it, it's there's so many adaptive items in a pro forma that actually, I believe, really mesh within and complement this building structure type.

SPEAKER_01 27:58

Agreed. And I just want to emphasize that the more you standardize a building system, the more you get that economy of scale. So you're reducing product waste, you're standardizing your building system and your structural grid, discussing these options early on and working with a builder that knows the drill and is open to working with mass timber and connecting your system's MEP coordination well ahead of time. And then it's just a trickle-down beneficial effect.

SPEAKER_00 28:24

Well, you know, what I found interesting is that we're bringing in a lot of these people now. I mean, we in our site plan approval process, like way before our design development, like in our DDs, even before then, you the team is actually bringing in and coordinating with manufacturers and with all of our structural engineering. And so I think the coordination in and of itself, and and especially since we did we're not experts at Mass Timber yet, yet. Um, but as soon as I saw all of these people coordinating, it made the light bulb went on. I think that's gonna help with our maximizing all the cost efficiency. I think it's critical, period.

SPEAKER_01 29:10

The key is these early-on conversations that drive the success of a project for its later stages because we want to get this out of the ground.

SPEAKER_00 29:17

An ounce of preparation weight saves a pound in. Ah, you guys know I can't remember all these sayings, but you guys get my point.

SPEAKER_01 29:25

Yes. So, Leslie, I think that we've done a really good job capturing the overall principles and goals of this project. Do you have any final thoughts or questions that you want to throw out there?

SPEAKER_00 29:38

Yeah, you know, I think as far as final thoughts, um, you know, it's been kind of fun getting back into the development role, I have to say. And it's reminded me of what good stewards we are as an architectural firm to our clients and to think differently and think outside the box. And it might cost a little bit more up front on this whole piece, but we are walking the walk right now. We are doing exactly what we share with our clients to do and guide them in that process. It's kind of made me giggle because, as you know, there's times where I'm like, well, what if we did this? And everyone's like, no, no more changes, stop, right? Like, there's a point where you don't make any more changes. And we're at that point, I gotta tell you. And um I think I'm gonna probably have to come to the meeting and someone's gonna put some, you know, masking tape over my mouth. At the end of the day, um, we're excited to share this process. Uh, our early-on investors, um, they're excited. And we are now um looking at our very complex capital stack. It's gonna be fun while we're putting this together. And I think one of the people, the things that people are so proud of is this technology of mass timber and being a part of the highest quality building in a material that is literally um at our front door and excited about that, and really being proud to land that here in North Corktown and in the city of Detroit. We're getting a lot of support as a result of that. And I couldn't be more proud of the team that's been assembled. I can't be more proud of the work that we're doing, not just on a city level, but man, we're adding to all the projects of Mass Timber, and it's in the city of Detroit. How exciting is that! I think those are good final closing thoughts.

SPEAKER_01 31:36

Agreed. I'm really proud that we're wrapping our ethos into a massive bow in this project. It's going to be a really good stake in the ground right in our backyard. I think it's going to be a super exciting project. I'm excited to see where we go from here. Well, Leslie, thank you for leading this conversation. It's been really exciting to talk about this today. And where can you find us on socials and all things uh to listen to our podcast in the future?

SPEAKER_00 31:59

Well, I know that you can go to our website and there's a link that goes to every single one of our podcasts. And our website is three squaredinc.com. We also announce these and throw these out on our Instagram, Three Squared Inc. And you can always call our phone number um and you'll get directed to one of us. And our phone number is 313-855-5977. So um we're always, always excited to talk to people and share um our knowledge base and share our progress. Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 32:34

Thank you so much, Leslie. Talk next time. Yep. Bye.