Innovative Real Estate with Three Squared, Inc.
As specialists in efficient residential and commercial prefabricated design, Leslie Horn, Breck Crandell, and Jill Ramirez of Three Squared, Inc. share their greatest insights, tips, and case studies from their years of experience in the industry. They'll be giving you their best advice through, trainings, guest features, and Q&A segments so you can turn your innovative vision to a reality.
Innovative Real Estate with Three Squared, Inc.
The Role Robotics Plays in Architecture with Dr. Sara Codarin
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What role do robots have in the future of architecture and construction?
In this insightful episode as we sit down with Dr. Sara Codarin, Assistant Professor of Architecture at Lawrence Technological University.
In this episode, we dive into the transformative potential of robotics in both academic settings and the real world. Sara shares how innovative technologies are reshaping the way we design, build, and restore structures; and explains why we should be techno-optimists when it comes to evolution of robotics in this industry.
Here's a glimpse of what you'll learn:
- Who is Dr. Sara Codarin and her work.
- Using robotics to restore historical sites.
- How do robotics fit into the future of design and construction.
- Are robots going to take away construction jobs?
- Detroit is a robotics city.
To learn more about Sara's work and research follow her on her Instagram, and read more about her here.
Read one of Sara's most recent publications: Enhancing the workforce in construction: robotic concrete printing in Detroit
Learn more about Lawrence Technological University's work with robots here.
Full Show Notes
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Welcome to the Innovative Real Estate Podcast with your hosts Leslie Horn, Brett Crandall, and Claire Olilla. We're here to make your life easier as a real estate developer and teach you everything we've learned about designing and building innovative homes, multifamily, and mixed-use structures. On this podcast, we'll be giving you our best advice, trainings, and QA segments so you can learn from our years of experience and make your innovative vision a reality.
SPEAKER_00Hello, hello, and welcome back to our 71st episode of Innovative Real Estate with your host, 3Squared Inc. Today we are going to be diving into a conversation regarding robotics technology, rapid prototyping, and its application in this industry here. We like to keep one foot in the world of academia here in architecture because it keeps you sharp. There are different ways to learn. There's practicing, and then there's the learning aspect and the teaching aspect. And they're they're two different worlds that are vastly separated, but somehow still work together constantly. And so it's really good to round yourself with a balance of both of these ways of learning through experience and through practice in architecture and through the academic language. Because they are they are two disparate yet connected things. And so today we are very honored to have our guest on our podcast, Sarah Koderin, who is an assistant professor of architecture at Lawrence Technological University's College of Architecture and Design, that's located at Southfield, Michigan, just north of our office here in Detroit. So, Sarah, can you introduce yourself and give just a brief background as you welcome us to the podcast today?
SPEAKER_01Of course. Thank you. Thank you so much. Thanks for having me today. Um, yeah, as you mentioned, I do teach and I do research at the College of Architecture and Design at LorenzTech. I was educated in Italy, so I'm Italian from the University of Ferrara, um, where I completed my studies in architecture, and then I also pursued the PhD in technology of architecture. And at that point, I became very interested in the use of technology with the focus on the culture of technology and also intersecting these ideas uh with craft and craft as it relates to the construction industry. So that's that's an overview of my path. Um and uh actually after I graduated from, you know, after I got my master's degree, um, I started working, um, but I was very curious on some of the things that were happening in Italy at the time. Uh, there was a company, Dshape, that uh was working on 3D printing houses uh and using um innovative technologies to think about prototypes at a large scale. So usually when we think about prototypes, we think about small scale scale models, but they were trying to scale up some of these things, and I got very interested in that. So I contacted them and I started being an observer of you know, like that kind of work environment. Um and at that time, uh, actually uh they were working on one project uh that uh was a kind of like an interesting example on the way we could think about technology to serve um culture at large. Um so basically what they did, they were contacted by by um an institute of archaeology in London to think about ways to reconstruct the Arch of Palmyra. So we're back in 2015-2016, it's almost a decade ago. Uh but basically because of their expertise that they had at the time, uh, they were asked to uh uh to make a prototype of the arch that was destructed at that time during the war in Syria. And so I started following that work, uh, really being interested in thinking about um how we can build new things with new technologies, basically. That was the ol rationale. And how the process worked, uh basically what happened, that there's let's imagine that there's a situation of you know social, political, environmental complexity anywhere in the world, and there are elements of our collective heritage that get either destroyed or damaged. Um, at that point, uh basically what the uh this institute did was to collect images all around the world of that archaeological site in Palmyra before the war happened and before all these kind of uh conditions hit the site. And so, like you know, remotely, basically, what happened is that they were able to reconstruct a 3D model of the site. And the 3D model was not precise because the data collection was done like kind of like in a quick way and like not following specific protocols. But basically, out of that model, they were able to obtain a precise enough kind of uh digital, uh digital model, digital information to be able to build part a portion of the archaeologist, in this case the Arch of Palmera, to rebuild using robotic technology, basically. And to me, that was interesting because it was a proof of concept of how we can like having in this like in a in this notion of big digital environment, we can work asynchronously and remotely to bring like to streamline a workflow that has a certain level of complexity. So thinking about uh how do we create the digital model and how do we we use that for implementation, and then ultimately what kind of tools we use to create uh the physical models. It's kind of a long story to talk about uh how I I started thinking about the use of new technologies for restoration, just thinking about what the possibilities are and what the level of precision can be, and in what kind of instances uh we can we can think about these kinds of applications. I've always been interested in looking at how the building sites work uh conceptually. Uh, and I look at them as a sort of temporary coalition of people that come together, they follow, they read the instructions, and then they they implement, you know, um an object of architecture of construction. And so that that really makes me think about you know how everything that we build is a prototype by definition, because it's a wise man once told me every building should be built twice, right? Exactly.
SPEAKER_00You gotta learn through experience. So I totally understand what you're saying there.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's a prototype in so many ways. The site is always unique, the environmental conditions are unique, the people you work with, you know, is that coalition I was talking about is unique. And and those things are don't get repeated, right? Uh, especially if we're thinking about architecture in the humanistic sense uh of the discipline. Um and I think that when we deal with existing constructions, especially since I come from the European context, everything, all the built real estate in Europe, like everything we can think of, was built before the 1990s. And so there's a lot to think about in terms of renovation, in terms of restoration, if there's historic value involved, uh, and also retrofitting. There are like many things that uh in general um we should think about when we have that extensive heritage that is been you know operating for a while. Um and and in specific instances, I think we have kind of uh even we have more levels of complexity because we have an existing geometry, we we can have certain sort of urban constraints, even accessing uh those kinds of constructions. And and they specifically they require a very kind of high level of craft and knowledge uh for these kinds of interventions, and and and usually those are moments in which you know like the digital stream of data gets interrupted. And I think that's really a point of interest in starting to think about how can implementation technologies can sort of like start making connections between, you know, the the project and the making.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, well, that's fascinating. You come from that mindset, and then you are displaced into America, into a suburb of an American city, and America is, well, we've joked here on the podcast, it's probably like a decade behind on a lot of these technologies between areas in Europe. Uh, but we are, for all intents and purposes, an exceptionally young country where we are constantly developing and our cities don't have that culture, that texture, that that depth of uh, I guess, context that Europe does. And so it's fascinating to hear you talk about restoration purposes. Um, I mean, we are in Detroit, so we do a lot of renovation work, but renovation and restoration, and they're they're different things, right? Because they mean they mean different to cultural backgrounds. But in America, we are developing a lot of new. And I think like one of the biggest crises that we are facing, if not the largest one, in this industry is a housing issue. And so you brought up like the 3D printing aspect of homes, um, which, you know, good buddies of ours built the first 3D printed home here in the city of Detroit, which is very exciting to see them do. But we still feel like that technology is quite a ways off from being translated into a working relationship within that industry. Like, and to take your words, to be part of that collective on site that comes together to build a project. How do you see robots fitting into that ultimately? Because I think a lot of people are very skeptical to look at like a large gantry device with a 3D printing nozzle hovering over the ground and printing houses one after the other, right? It's gonna be like a smaller introduction in the way that it took a long time for power tools to find their way onto a US job site and to find larger equipment that are now like what would have taken a whole city block worth of people to dig a hole in the ground is now done by one person with an excavator. So, like, how do you see that kind of ramping up into the transition between how we can collaborate with robots and what's actually achievable on construction sites?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, no, those are all great points. And it's it's interesting that you mentioned Detroit, because uh when I talk about my my path, my professional uh path towards the city, I always mention that I moved here because Detroit, Metro Detroit actually is one of the highest, uh is one of the city of the world with the highest concentration of robots because of the heavy industry, because of the manufacturing industry. There are many, many robots in town. And I find that inspiring, and I find uh inspiring uh the connections that can be made between academia and practice and research in that sense. Yeah, as you mentioned, um those kinds of technologies have a number, they're not quite there yet. Uh there are a number of complexities that come into place. Um, you know, for instance, if we you mentioned 3D printing, you know, if we if we think about uh the use of these technologies for like additive uh manufacturing, um you know, we need to think about what kind of material are we using? Like uh is it like uh what kind of suppliers do provide that specific material that is certified and can be 3D printed? Can we 3D print on site? What are the constraints? There are a number of things that also that come with the geometry of the workspace, um uh and uh you know, uh, and also the safety issues on like collaborating and uh with with the machines on site.
SPEAKER_00But all that aside, let's just like let's look at it in a vacuum. Like, how applicable do you think robotics are to the actual industry as of now? And maybe the answer is it's not on a construction site, maybe it's off-site work, or I'd like to hear more about the prototyping work that you're doing.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, uh, well, I mean, I mean, there are a number of uh constraints related to being able sort of to orchestrate all the sequences needed on site. Um, but there's um there are possibilities when it comes to um kind of the the design freedom that some of uh these technologies allow for. Uh so right now, for instance, um I'm uh collaborating uh with with a company that is thinking about uh using off-the-shelf material that can be extruded uh for uh 3D printing purposes.
SPEAKER_00When you say off-the-shelf, you mean like is that pre-mixed in a different location and then they use that mix to print or is it like materials that you can buy at Home Depot if they make sense, right? Because sometimes okay, now we're talking the language, we're getting there.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, there are um there are many companies that are developing their own material, or you know, they are collaborating with material scientists to develop their own formula, but that's like adds up one step, you know, like one extra step or like a number of extra steps into the process. So one once you know that you can have access to a machine that processes uh materials that you know you you can buy anywhere and easily to any like local supplier, then uh then kind of like simplifies things.
SPEAKER_03Um so something I'm curious about that I wanted to chime in at was I think you've touched on so many aspects about architecture. And the wonderful thing about academia is there's a lot more flexibility and room to play. And as architects, we love to play with things and experiment and produce these prototypes that evolve somewhere. But what I'm interested in hearing more about is what ways do you see these robotic um collaborators working and benefiting humans to kind of like reduce costs on a job site or just make things easier? Because I think a lot of times in architecture in academia, at least in my experience, is we tend to use robots in ways that are more for play than for an application on a job site. And so I think that you're starting to cross those boundaries and get it to be a little bit more useful for the construction industry. So can you touch a little bit more on that?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And actually, I do play in my classes with robots, uh, so to speak, in the sense that uh I think it's it's important, especially in education, to frame robotics as an opportunity for design, knowing that robots and in in general these kind of processes they and and tools they come from other industries. Uh you know, uh usually this kind of development of these kind of tools, they they they happen in in manufacturing, and and we absorb um those kind of opportunities from other sectors. And so the first thing that we do, especially in academia, we do play to try and understand how to translate what robots are originally made for, like to perform precise and repetitive tasks, and then transform the approach and use the potential of having a you know uh an arm with a number of axes moving in space, and and think about how do we make take advantage of that motion of that workspace for design purposes. So that's the framework. And there's a lot uh that um uh that needs to be done just in terms of getting the these kind of tools ready to be useful on site. But right now, actually, in a different in a number of contexts, I'm seeing single-task robots, right? So uh robots that can uh perform like sort of small-scale uh single operations that kind of are in support of other sequences. There are experiments that have been done in thinking about the 70s in Japan, in in terms of having multitask robots that can really take on like complex sequences of operations. But uh, you know, at the time there was a barrier in terms of like computational access, in terms of cost, in terms of skills. And so that kind of development sort of stopped. But now we're interested in in continuing that conversation because there's like some sort of perfect storm of conditions that are allowing us to think more like um consistently about about these opportunities. So we do have more computational power, we do have access uh to that kind of knowledge, even like many in many schools, teaching robotics has become state-of-the-art uh kind of uh curriculum, part of the curriculum in design, in engineering, uh in architecture. So all of these things coming together, I think, are like opening up an environment in which more professionals know how to speak machine. And if you have that as a baseline, then you can generate more ideas on thinking about maybe simple small-scale applications that like incrementally can help sort of improve the the the building site as a workspace.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I think the two of you together are kind of sort of getting closer to that answer because Joe brings up a good point of exclusivity, where I think like seeing a six-armed robot, you know, it's that's what it is in my head. I know it's a six-axis robot, but that's it's hard to explain if you're not looking at one, uh, is is intimidating uh to a lot of people. I mean, even to people who are going to school in this profession, I think are intimidated by by some of these machines and what their capabilities are. And then, Sarah, you bring up the single-use application, where like if I need a power tool, the Walt or Milwaukee makes a power tool that shoots staples and one that shoots nails. Very rarely do they make one that does all of these things because like people on the job site don't want to overthink these things. So I think it's gonna be a while. I guess I'm projecting here, but it's it's probably going to be a while before we see these applications on the job site, as much as we see them maybe in the rapid prototyping phase of things, where I think a lot in the world of academia, we see prototype, small-scale versions testing the capabilities and capacities of these tools to achieve things at scale. And the place that this conversation started with your restoration project, I think is a fascinating example of that, where we have the digital language to assess the situation. We can create a digital version of these, like a digital twin of the existing that we can then play with and then start to utilize these tools to apply. So I guess do you see this as an exclusive tool just for the people that are going to school utilizing these things? Or do we see a path forward where we could use these tools to build objects that will train people to work on site, ultimately leading to maybe it is single use robots that we start to see on a job site that make our lives easier, even if it's just carrying stuff up to a roof, which is hard to do for laborers. That's backbreaking work. Do you see a translation between like rapid prototyping and the actual physical building we see on site?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, those are all great questions. And actually, I'll try to unpack some of the things that you have mentioned because I think the intimidating aspect of robots comes from the fact that usually we do envision directly the application. So we're 3D printing 3D printing. Are we assembling? Are we cutting pieces and moving them around the building site? But in reality, the base principle of these kind of tools are um kind of uh revolve around the kinematic. So what a robot is, is an object that moves in space. When I design using a robot and the end goal is making an object, right, like a scale model, a proto-architectural form, what I'm actually designing is the motion of the robot, not the final object. And the motion of the robot needs to be connected to the tool that I install on the robotic arm. That could be any tool that you know uh that can pick object or can mill object or has a nozzle that can extrude material. So I think that um sort of deconstructing that the complexity helps find this kind of opportunities for application. So think about how do we what do we need on site? Is there any sequence or is there any task that requires a motion in space in the three-dimensional space? If the response is yes, then we can think about, you know, how can uh we actually make effective use of we're talking about a robotic art um on site. I think that based on the time of being I've been working with robots and teaching robotic fabrication, the interfaces are becoming simpler and simpler at each iteration after every year. And this helps a lot because right now in school, I can teach robotic fabrication using Rhino and Grasshopper, which are the tools that all the students can have access to and knowledge to, right? So, like knowing that with tools that architects use to design things, we can also program the kinematic of a robot to accomplish a task that's really speaking to the accessibility of some of those things. So there's to a certain extent, we are still in an in-between stage in which this kind of knowledge is exclusive for those students, you know, that have been through architecture school and have been exposed to this knowledge, but this is gonna change. And that's already changing because there are like many companies that are investing a lot on like the training side of things, uh, meaning how to construct anything uh with an uh sort of um anything and informed by the use of technology, augmented by the use of technology. I'm thinking about the HoloLens, you know, VR augmented reality on site, and um robotic fabrication is part of this conversation. There's also something uh that I look at, I always look at trends, what's going on in the construction industry, what's going on in higher education, what's going on in the research sector, and I'm looking at different trends that are going on. I see that there's a high demand for um um high demand of jobs in the construction industry, uh, that it's uh not really fulfilled because because uh right now, especially in first world economies, construction construction jobs are seen as dangerous, dirty, dumb, dull. We see the four D's, right? And so there's this gap that uh is uh kind of should be considered in this day and age. So there's like that that is happening, the cost of technology is dropping, the cost of robotics is dropping, uh, and at the same time uh we see kind of like an uh increase in the cost of labor. So like all these things when they come together make us wonder, right? Like, is this time uh to start investing in knowledge and this kind of technologies? Because I see in a decade from now that you know we're having this conversation now, thinking about what are the opportunities, how can we implement some of this knowledge in the building side, but I see that becoming a necessity soon. So we really we will face these kind of challenges, and it's better for us to start thinking about these things now.
SPEAKER_03So I want to chime in because I think you've said so many important things, but I do want to touch on the thing that stood out to me the most is that you said the cost of technologies, the cost of using these robots and the research behind them is decreasing. That's such a unique aspect to everything we're seeing in the world right now. Cost and inflation is ever increasing. Same with construction costs on the job site, labor, skilled labor is in a shortage. So those costs are whatever they want to be. People can fix the price because you still need that work done. So I think that's such an exciting aspect. And you're diving into all of the knowledge and teaching aspects behind these robotic tools and using them as an asset instead of having like some fear around these robotic arms taking over the world kind of thing. So I I wonder if you envision like what is the future there, because I think it's an amazing opportunity that if the cost of utilizing these tools is going down, I I think it's spelled out right there that it's just gonna help with construction on the job site and has so much potential to go from there.
SPEAKER_00Well, hold on here, because I'm gonna throw a curveball into this conversation that neither of you were anticipating. Uh, but it is it is where I want to go with the conversation, which is okay, in a nutshell, cost of labor and accessibility of people who know what they're doing on a job site is where we we need more. We need more people who know how to plumb buildings, we need more electricians, we know that we have a labor market shortage. Meanwhile, as we've established this conversation, robots are getting more accessible to use. The tools to use them are getting easier for people to uh to be able to access, and they're getting cheaper and more prevalent, right? Okay, great. I'm gonna use a daily life example. If you go to the grocery store, there's like a good chance you're gonna check yourself out, right? Because now we have these self-checkout machines, and the idea here was that it was going to offset the labor market and it was going to make groceries cheaper for everybody because now we don't have to pay to staff all of these people. So I fear that there is a trend oncoming, that the people who build and own and know how to manage these robots are going to take over the market and they're going to get rid of the people who actually know skills and trades with their hands. Are we fearful as much as we are uh optimistic that the future might just be like we have major construction companies taking over job sites with robots and we don't need people doing labor on the jobs as much as we used to? So there's like there's a there's this good version and a bad version. And we we see this every time we bring up AI in conversation too, right? Like, yeah, the road to health is paved with good intentions. Like, are we are you nervous at all about the future of technology or are you optimistic? So you got you got Jill's good version of my bad version, my dystopian version. What do you see as the future of robotics in this industry?
SPEAKER_01Well, to respond to your question, um I've always been a techno-optimist because I think that there are some trends that we cannot stop. And we need to accept the fact that we need to build literacy around the use of these technologies and these tools. So that's the way to go. I think that's the approach. And I think that in the future, uh architects will be more and more involved in construction, and that's how that will bring value to the profession. I'm not saying that we're gonna go back to the notion of the master builder, probably a hybrid between that and what we do right now, because we are, I think architects are still very much focused on producing notations, so instructions for others to be able to understand and then to implement those ideas into build construction. But with the integration of uh technologies and tools for construction, I think that we'll get closer as architects to the practice of building things. And overall, at least that's how I envision the new sort of structure of the building side. I see that becoming more an intellectual job. Like you really need to have a package of knowledge that will allow you to manage complex workflows from the digital phase to the physical phase. So, in that sense, I see like an increase of value when it comes to all these things coming together. So, like, of course, we will, you know, it's I'm not saying we're not using the hammer anymore, you know, like on site or some of these base tools that uh for us make a clear connection to the construction. But I think that uh some of the, and I keep saying like sequences and operations, many of these will be uh managed not directly with our hands, but with tools that kind of make us disembodied to the actual task that will need to be performed to accomplish a certain construction goal. So I always call uh robots disembodied tools because it's kind of like an extension of our body, of our arms, of our hand uh that follows the instructions that don't come from our brain, but from what we design computationally on our computer. So I think it's just like a kind of different stream of information. And at the end, what we are looking for is a high quality end product. So by using using digital tools, uh, we know that we can increase the quality of the result. And at the same time, when we can kind of streamline immediately the design to the construction, and that's I think the scope of robots, being able to make those transitions instantaneous, then we are able to mock up things, to see how operations work at a real scale and to make iterations. And that really allows for like increasing the overall quality of the work.
SPEAKER_03So I think the way that you think about using these tools is such a beautiful way of no intimidation. It's more so of asking these tools how how can they benefit us? How can we mutually work together? And so, my question for you is how do you think that you can spread that knowledge to like a wider audience where people tend to have so many preconceived notions and fears behind these robots taking over our jobs and leaving people jobless? What's a good way of I guess extending that? Like, like how do you get those answers out to the general public so that people can start to digest this knowledge and this mindset that you have around the robotic tools that other people tend to not they just they kind of fear what they don't know, I guess is what I'm trying to say with that.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that's that's important. That's an important question because what I'm trying to achieve right now in my research is um the realization of full-scale mockups and kind of simulation of full-scale processes. Because when I can document that, it's kind of like translates immediately. Um, because I, you know, I can talk about all the trends and where I see uh how I'm seeing robots being used in the future, and I can worry about you know the lack of uh skilled people and how can we react to that, and how can we sort of digitize the collective knowledge to be able to iterate on that uh using tools like robots. Uh but especially I think robot, I think that architects are visual people, uh, and we need to see examples like in a show and tell fashion to try and really understand how the sequences work. Uh, so my my my goals for the next feature um are really uh to mock up um examples and to stage in my lab uh how certain sequences in the building site could work so that I can document those things and you know I can uh use uh this content for dissemination. And in those instances, then I get the attention of the professionals that you know um might think of a specific application case, then um where uh sort of uh these technologies can come in hand or can be helpful.
SPEAKER_00It's incredible. It's the future, it's the future of construction and building. We're getting there. Although implement implementation will be admittedly, I think, slow to roll out and to be accepted, specifically by Americans. We, you know, we've got our own hurdles here. Uh for our listeners who are interested in following more of your work, where can they find you or where can they follow uh some of the studies that you're currently doing and the future of the work that you're going to be doing?
SPEAKER_01My um you you can find uh my contact information on the College of Architecture and Design website. I I post um I post my work on social media. Uh so at Sara Kodarin on Instagram, you can find uh kind of work in progress of some of the things I'm looking at. And I have a number of publications that are open access in which I talk about these connections between uh research and practice. Uh, especially one recent paper that I've uh published really talks about the culture of construction in Detroit. Uh, thinking about some of the key topics that we have discussed today, thinking about the role of labor, the role of tools, and how how these things can evolve in the future of construction.
SPEAKER_00Amazing. So if we could get uh a link to that publication in particular, then we'd love to drop that in the show notes when we launch this episode. Uh, because I think that people who have uh been around for this episode and have followed the the other uh the other episodes that we've done relating to this topic of digital fabrication, of unique construction aspects uh are gonna be highly interested in that work and in a continued conversation around how technology is going to influence the built environment in which we exist. So we're gonna wrap up for today's episode. I know, Sarah, we could probably keep going on this conversation for another few hours. I have a feeling we're going to see you on this podcast again in the future to talk maybe more about a specific project that you're working on at that point in time. Uh and until then, any uh closing words for our audience here?
SPEAKER_01Thanks so much. Uh, it's been a pleasure. Uh my invite is for everyone to be optimistic about what's next. Um, I think there are many exciting opportunities ahead. We haven't discussed too much the integration of AI, but that's also sort of like uh uh existing condition around the development of all of these tools and processes. Uh, but I think being curious and excited about the opportunities is key, really, to find innovative practices in the architecture discipline.
SPEAKER_00Amazing. Amazing. Well, thank you so much for your time today. I'm glad that you are not as terrified of the future as I am. Uh, but it takes pessimists, optimists, and realists to see the world. All right, until next time, this has been Innovative Real Estate with 3Squared Inc. We will see you on the next episode. Take care.
SPEAKER_02We hope you enjoyed this episode. And if you found it so valuable you want to connect with us one-on-one, click the link in the description to tell us all about your project so we can help you get started. And to get notified on the next episode here on Innovative Real Estate, go ahead and subscribe to the podcast on iTunes so you never miss a beat. Get out there, put today's advice into action, and we will see you in the next episode.