Innovative Real Estate with Three Squared, Inc.
As specialists in efficient residential and commercial prefabricated design, Leslie Horn, Breck Crandell, and Jill Ramirez of Three Squared, Inc. share their greatest insights, tips, and case studies from their years of experience in the industry. They'll be giving you their best advice through, trainings, guest features, and Q&A segments so you can turn your innovative vision to a reality.
Innovative Real Estate with Three Squared, Inc.
Making Building Fun Again w/ Zachary Miller
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How do we fix the broken permit process and actually make building houses fun again?
We sit down with Zachary D. Miller, AIA, NCARB—a Cleveland-based registered architect and Plan Examiner for the City of Cleveland's Building and Housing Department. Having worked on both sides of the drawing board, Zachary brings a uniquely practical perspective on what it really takes to move a project from a cool concept to a fully permitted build.
We dive deep into the importance of city departments working as a unified team, why traditional construction remains the "safe" default, and how cities like Cleveland are modernizing their review processes to support innovative building methods like modular and "industrialized units."
Episode Highlights:
- How and why do we need to make it easier to build?
- How the industrial revolution led to housing expansion in the midwest.
- Permitting reform process in Cleveland.
- Creating clear paths to move smoothly through the system.
- Building is fun!
- Housing is an assembly of details.
- How do we go beyond cool concepts and actually make a model that works?
- Deregulation of the system to give some more ownership to the builder!!
Resources:
View the full Show Notes.
Head over to Zachary’s website to explore more, and connect with him on Instagram and LinkedIn.
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Or the bigger kind of uphill battle is just the market in terms of both consumers and installers.
SPEAKER_01This is unique. I feel like a lot of people are kind of on one side of that conversation or the other.
SPEAKER_00Because at the end of the day, we just want to see stuff built and we want a city that's awesome and a city that's livable and affordable for everyone.
SPEAKER_01All it takes is the exposure of a project to the right person. Welcome back to another installment of Innovative Real Estate. I am your host, Breck Crandall, and this is Three Squared Inc. Today we're keeping a short cast of characters because we are gonna fill this conversation with interesting facts and uh and blow your Midwestern mind because we're bringing together the powers of Ohio and Michigan. Today we have uh on the on the podcast as our guest, Zach Miller, who's coming to us from the incredible city of Cleveland. There is a lot happening in the Midwest in these post-industrial towns. And Cleveland and Detroit have a whole lot of parallels, some of which we're gonna talk uh touch on and unpack today. Um, Zach comes to us uh as an architect um who's also practicing and and doing some really cool and interesting stuff down there. Um, but he is also on both sides of the fence because he is part of the planning department uh for the city of Cleveland as well. So we're gonna unpack all of that. But without further ado, Zach, good morning. Thank you for joining us. Go ahead and introduce yourself.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, hey, good morning, Breck. Thank you so much for having me. Um, really excited to discuss everything. Yeah, my name is Zach Miller. I'm an architect here in Cleveland, Ohio. Um, really you know excited about the work that Breck's doing and kind of seeing what we can discuss between both of our cities. And as he said, yeah, working on kind of on both sides uh here in the city of Cleveland, uh building a housing department. I'm a plan examiner there, which is an amazing job, kind of an opportunity to see all sorts of work coming, you know, through our city. Um and then privately, yeah, just try to kind of keep keep a keen eye out for for project opportunities, kind of usually just you know, small things, residential infill work, uh surrounding communities in Cleveland, the east side suburbs, as we say here, mostly where I kind of live. Um, but yeah, just just excited to talk all things architecture, urbanism development, you know, rust belt revitalization, all the fun stuff. So thank you again for having me.
SPEAKER_01Absolutely excited to get this perspective because this is unique. I feel like a lot of people um are kind of on one side of that conversation or the other, and then kind of develop a mindset as a result that kind of uh I don't know, maybe maybe not the right terminology, but pigeonholes them um to uh to a certain perspective of the industry. Um, and I think you're towing a very interesting line. And uh I know you and I just just recently uh officially met each other, um, have known a little bit about what each other has been up to. Um, but even in just quick conversations, like we we're very much on the same thought process here. Um, so let me preface like uh we know that there is a housing crisis, period, full stop. Like, no surprise. Uh, we also know that this has not been a federal priority for, I don't know, since the 50s. Like, not in my lifetime have I ever seen an actual push or a drive for housing. Really, that wasn't, you know, just like money or development, capitalism doing its thing, um, that could turn a very predictable profit. Other than that, like um, I haven't seen a boom, like, especially in Detroit. It has only been the last three, four years that we've even started seeing construction cones, or or let alone a crane on the horizon was a big exciting moment for us. Now it's everyday life, but set help me set the stage. So, what do you see as the challenges to housing? Um, what do you see as the frustrations? And give me a bit of your mindset on the topic.
SPEAKER_00Wow, that yeah, that's a great, great background and and great question. I would say there's there's a lot of things happening at once. Um, from my standpoint here at the city of Cleveland and uh you know, just private small private projects, you I really try to take an approach that like you know assess assesses the market essentially. And um just with cost of materials going up and cost to build and and you know, this sort of thing, you have to really like look at what makes sense. And you know, at the end of the day, you know, there are incentives and there are tax abatements and there are you know grants and whatnot, and those are wonderful. But at the end of the day, people have to assemble team. This is a a team effort, you know, there's someone that there's someone or multiple people that pour the concrete and frame the walls and install the windows and pull the permits and and do the drawings like on my end. So it's kind of a multiple uh multiple people that that do multiple things. And I think that's kind of why my approach is like we got to look at the market and what pencils. I what what holds water, what you know, fruits have juice that is worth the squeeze in a way. Um, so um, and here in Cleveland, I guess that has to do with, yeah, like different neighborhoods. How do we how do we make it easier to build is kind of my MO here at the city. Is you know, we are I've I think it was the mayor of a different city, not in Ohio, actually think in Texas, that reformed their permitting process and said we kind of get in our own way a lot. You know, we have a lot of wait times, and that's actually something that we've uh done, I guess, speaking professionally, uh, here in this at the city of Cleveland. We just had a permitting process overhaul that I was a big part of, which was awesome, and we're still working through it to make it easier to pull permits, make it you know, quicker to pull permits, um, you know, to make the review processes cleaner and more transparent. Um, and that's been a huge help, I think, for a lot of people. And I'm I guess still trying to improve upon that. It's like how can we incentivize people and say, you know what, it would be cool to build here, whether you're a builder or developer or you want to own a house here, this is the spot to do it. You know, we have land just like Detroit does the land bank. So there's a lot of resources. And I think the second, I guess, way that I look at it is uh we're still building essentially the same way, like like you mentioned, the 50s. We're kind of still building the same way. It's the same, you know, uh stud wall, shingle applied, sheathing over top. Like, yes, we have made enhancements absolutely in terms of performance and and you know, installation requirements. We have the residential codes that and and just general building codes that um you know provide higher specifications and higher requirements, but we're essentially still building the same way. So I'm really interested in exploring new. I don't know what the answer is, but just new avenues of you know, how can we create new ways to build? Are there new methods and materials? Are there new ways to actually build a sense of enclosure, which is what we're after? Can we use existing, not just housing stock, but building stock? Can we take existing typologies like big box stores and strip malls? And can we think of new uses for housing in those that actually are pleasant and not weird? Like how can we kind of investigate those typologies? So, yeah, all sorts of things floating around my mind about this. Absolutely.
SPEAKER_01All right, so for for our show runner, the the person really uh coordinating all of these podcasts and allowing this to happen, uh, for over to Nora. See, we didn't name this episode before we recorded this one because I didn't know what we were gonna end up covering because Zach here just like listed out four full episodes worth of content. So you will be a recurring guest, you don't get a choice. I would love to. So let me let me just uh let me let me go back. And I think that the theme here of today is gonna be like zooming out so that we can really start to assess the situation. Because um, one of the things that I just pulled out from what you said is like pointing out that the buildings are the product of an army, right? I mean, the ownership down to every tradesperson that was working on that project who can drive down the street and be like, I worked on that house. Like, that's ownership, right? Like the crew that helped me build my home that I am in right now, they're part of a family, they have ownership of that thing, right? Like they woke up, went to work, and completed a building in reality. They have ownership of that, and that is not just the people who pulled wires and made the pipes, like that's the people who approved the plans who reviewed this for conformance with zoning and and planning regulations. This is the people who like approved my my tax uh situation so that I I could actually support this building long term. It's the people who did the energy analysis on the building.
SPEAKER_00Right, exactly.
SPEAKER_01These this process is so much bigger than architecture. And so I've really taken a position as of late where uh you gotta step back. Like you can you can give me a house that we ordered off Amazon and in order to live in that house in the city of Detroit, it's gonna cost you about a hundred thousand dollars to connect to the utilities, to apply for permits, to get everything situated so that you can have a certificate of occupancy. That's a that's a a big, big piece of this conversation. And so we're not just talking about architecture of buildings, like unique construction types, awesome. Uh obviously, Three Squared's been all about that. That's like the majority of the work that we do is try to uh to to push the envelope and and see if there are better ways of doing things. And I'll be the first to admit, like, sometimes no. You know, we've been known for working with shipping containers, and it's fun. There is a cool factor, um, undeniable, like in terms of their aesthetic, this modern industrial appeal, like all very good. Are they a superior building product? In most instances, no. And I have very specific reasons as to why. And we can use them if that's the aesthetic and the the end goal of what you're doing. But all of these unique construction types are just they're not fixing the problem. The problem is so much bigger than just the construction typology. And and and then there's a lot of people involved in the process. So I I kind of want to like just like soft pause there and just like really point out like we're talking about something that is much bigger than any individual house or build-a-ready plan situation could ever hope to address.
SPEAKER_00A thousand percent, a thousand percent.
SPEAKER_01And so, in that mindset, as we talk about like so permitting overhauls, we just talked about what's happening in the city of Detroit where they're they're making big pushes for this, but I often think that there's like a miscommunication between the narrative and the reality of situations, uh, like a road to hell is paved to good intentions kind of scenario. Um, and so tell me a little bit more about that process. Like, how involved were you? Um, what kind of rules were you isolating and addressing that you think really had an impact on housing being accessible or not?
SPEAKER_00Sure. Yeah, I I think so as a bit of background, um, in Cleveland and probably similar to Detroit and all sorts of you know, Rust Belt and Great Lakes cities, there was a rapid expansion of housing when industry boomed, houses just were basically thrown up, you know, rapidly, and streets had to develop and buildings were built. And you know, the permitting, as far as I know historically, was not obviously as robust if if existent at all. So people would just buy land and build, whether it was commercial streets.
SPEAKER_01It was the Wild West kind of thing.
SPEAKER_00It was it was essentially the Wild West. It kind of still is in some ways, but I think and that what base that's basically what gave us our housing stock that we still have, and I'm sure Detroit also still has. So we have this breast on Cleveland here, on it's the east side and the west side of the Cuyahoga River, probably you know, somewhat similar to to Detroit in a way and other cities. Um and and they kind of follow this development pattern on on both sides of the city. Um, where with the, you know, after the Industrial Revolution and as as manufacturing really picked up in the early 20th century, there was just a massive need for housing. And so houses were just built, you know, rapidly again from you know 1900 to like 1940, 1950, and kind of outwards from there. Um and that's that's just how we have our housing stock. And I think with with the advent of zoning codes to try to regulate that growth, I think when we were growing so rapidly, and with the advent of more strict building codes and permitting processes, there was basically this fallout, this kind of like side effect of that whole process where things slowed down and development became harder. And when you throw in other issues like redlining and and um you know perceptions of neighborhoods and and obviously urban sprawl, which is another kind of fallout of that, um, you get the condition that's Cleveland and Detroit are in now, which are you know, infill opportunities, vacant lots, uh old decaying decaying houses, housing stock that's really not easy to work with. And and and also, I guess the the paper, the soft cost, I guess if you will, side of that and permitting is a permitting process that is super overbuilt and tons of different apartments and different silos and and and whatnot that are touching different parts of a project and might not coordinate. So that's kind of what we started with in Cleveland. There were, there'd be a project, for example, someone wants to build a house and they're doing the city a service by building a house in in, let's say, an area of Cleveland where there wasn't much demand. So instead of being kind of championed to do that work, they were getting essentially, you know, different points or touch points throughout the city of you need to do this and you need to comply with this and whatever. And you know, only after they had you know built the foundation or framed framed the walls, would they then say, Oh, you know what, your sidewalk's not compliant, you gotta fix that too. And oh, you know, you gotta tear down this tree, you gotta whatever. So the costs would just keep piling up, and people were like, screw the sum out, and then that thus continues the cycle of degrowth and population loss.
SPEAKER_01Well, and that ripples through the contractors, then then the ownership through. You get a situation in Detroit where like people will build in Highland Park because the rules just don't apply right over the border, right? So it's like a city within a city and they'll build there because like I don't have to deal with the Detroit like BS fees on top of this, right?
SPEAKER_00That's kind of that's exactly right. So that's what we did here, I guess. Just to get to the the juxta your question, is is can we just rebuild this process where instead of all these different departments kind of weighing in at different times, let's build a whole process that is more cohesive. And that's kind of what our work has been, my work, you know, in in in um collaboration with tons of other, you know, amazing people at the city of Cleveland have been, you know, past like two years, and we're still working on it. Just so, you know, someone can apply for a project application and take it all the way through, and whatever departments have jurisdiction over decisions being made, whether it's a replacement of one singular window in a single family home or whether it's a new office building in downtown Cleveland, the pertinent departments and review bodies will see it. And and you know, there's not going to be any after-the-fact moments or you know, major project killers, because that that's another thing too. There might be one department that's like, this is awesome, and another department says this is not okay. We, you know, we're not okay with the general massing. So I guess my this is where my architecture brain kind of comes in, and and I've kind of told the city here, we need to kind of mirror what the applicant or the design team or the design professional are doing. You know, they're looking at zoning, fire codes, Ohio building codes, uh, setback requirements, height restrictions from you know, all the codes. Like they're looking at all these things, they're looking at the pro forma and the program from their client, and they're kind of painting this picture of what building makes sense on a given site. And the city gate basically needs to kind of mirror their uh design exercise instead of reacting after the fact when they present this like thesis-level project of hey, here's our complete 400-page CD set, give us approval, and then you then comes the list of you know, 12 pages of why this doesn't work. Let's start, you know, from the schematic phases all the way down through and really like you know, kind of hold each other's hand in a way to build stuff. Because at the end of the day, we just want to see stuff built and we want a city that's awesome and a city that's livable and affordable for everyone. So that's kind of been my my perception on on our whole permitting reform here in Cleveland.
SPEAKER_01Oh, yeah, absolutely. Okay, so so I'm gonna repeat the the takeaways from your explanation and kind of like a like a totally removed layperson's understanding of this. So, what I heard is like it starts with an understanding on both sides. Like from a city perspective, it everybody has to be able to say two things here is like this is complicated, and there's a lot of moving parts here, right? And if everybody's goal is one to build housing, two, to build safe housing, you know, health safety and welfare is like we both wear that badge. And uh and then yours as a like a city perspective is what is that community engagement and that involves the aesthetic and the use case and the occupancy, like all these things, right? Um, but that starts with an understanding, and then that understanding becomes a pathway. And what you've worked with everybody in various departments to do is to at least show a path through the system. And then that leads to communication, and the communication, all it takes is the exposure of a project and its status to the right person. And things will continue to move. Like, I don't think I've ever met somebody who works in a permitting or planning department who was like hostile to a building coming into existence. Like, I don't think they would have that job if this was right. Okay, so understanding they are not your enemy.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_01We are just a lot of us are uh oh following the rules, you know, of course.
SPEAKER_00Absolutely.
SPEAKER_01Right. But um, you're trying to uphold these rules, and sometimes those rules are self-inflicting and like step on themselves, or it was zoning regulations set in the 50s, and like we couldn't predict what things would be used for in 2026. Like, okay, so understanding leads to a pathway which gives exposure of where we are in the process to the person who needs to respond to it. And if that happened, like if when I needed a right-of-way permit to cut open the street in front of my house, right, the steward people called me. Oh, wouldn't that be lovely? Right. Yep. But I but it's it's all magic and fairies and unicorns, because that's that's hard in reality. And and I understand that. And like what works in Detroit might not work for you guys. Like our specific problems here. We built a city for you know four million people and we have less than a million people here, and we're trying, but our infrastructure is old and it's stretched thin, and we don't have the tax base to keep it up. And so when we add more to that, who's who's covering the bills, right? We're already stretched thin. That causes a lot of the tension here in Detroit. And then we've got houses buried in like every lot that's vacant, which is like, oh yeah, here's your here's your builder-ready lot that you gotta pay somebody 30k to dig out and fill with fresh dirt. Like, okay, so those are our issues. How do you connect then? So, all right, we've we've got a pathway, we've got communication. Somebody's coming to you saying, I found an architect, I designed a house that we want to build. I'm coming to the city of Cleveland. How has your process now changed this as an incoming home builder?
SPEAKER_00That's that's a great question. And and I think, like I said, it's kind of a work in progress too. So we're still seeing some growing pains, I would say, with the process. Um, but I think the goal is someone can come with that and not feel like they have to quarterback their own project because previously in Cleveland, that's been the Achilles. That's a great statement. Yeah. Well that that's that's what it is. It's you know, they'll still come in and say, Yeah, I want to build a house here, whether they're an o the end user, the occupant, or they're wanna they want to build a spec home. And they're like, you know, in City X or whatever, elsewhere in Ohio or maybe in Michigan, it's a a one-person building department, and it's a matter of presenting your plans and getting a sign-up, and he's you know, says no problem.
SPEAKER_01And they're there every other Thursday. Right. 315 Correct.
SPEAKER_00And and they're the they're the inspector as well, as well as being the building official. So they're all, you know, they wear many hats, and it's easy to build there. In a big jurisdiction like Cleveland or Detroit, there's a lot of departments and a lot of people and a lot of codes and regulations to enforce, so it just gets really messy. So the goal is that, yes, people will not feel like they have to quarterback their own house or their own project, and there's gonna be like a really path, a really easy path rather, um, through the process where there's total transparency of where things are. And we're all also keeping ourselves accountable because things happen. There's a ton of volume here. If something, you know, gets lost in the weeds or there's a certain review body that isn't, you know, responding. We, you know, we all kind of are seeing that and keeping each other, you know, like holding each other accountable to push this thing through. Because at the end of the day, it it only hurts us as a city to not push things through. So that's kind of the goal. And I think the goal, you know, broad more broadly speaking, is make it cool to build in Cleveland again. I think there's this repertoire here, and I because I talk with builders, I talk with developers, I talk with fellow architects. It's hard. It's hard because of these processes, because of the market. It's already hard enough because of the market, like you said, of the infrastructure, the ad costs of virgin soil on a site that has just the old foundation and old framing just poured into the hole and whatever covered with topsoil. Um, connecting to old utilities, all this stuff is already hard. We really need to like incentivize people and say, we're gonna make it so easy for you to build here. And you, you know, you should want to buy like 20 lots and build all you know your houses. We're doing a pre approved plan initiative kind of thing, I think, in the future. So however we can, you know, make it easier is kind of just you know the big idea, I suppose.
SPEAKER_01It is a fun process. A rewarding process, it's like it's one of the most rewarding endeavors you can go on in your life to self-develop. Yeah, and you are so involved in that process. It's such an emotional thing, like to hear you coming from a perspective of both an architect and a planner, to like talk about like lowering the barriers and and forgive me for using this term, but are you in favor of deregulation to make house building fun again?
SPEAKER_00Well, you know, that's a that's a that's a good question too, because I think it does. It goes back to agency and it goes back to ownership. And I think when you're in a place like Cleveland where our housing stock is really old and the market has made it very difficult to own a house, so you're kind of left to rent, you don't really feel a sense of ownership naturally as a as a human. So like big picture, I think that was a great point. Building is fun, like owning your house is fun. Bringing up something from nothing is fun. It is cool to see a street go from a vacant, you know, swath of nothingness to this beautiful stretch of homes where you get to you know relish in the character and look at the details and say, wow, that's a cool one. I like that siding, I like those windows. And it like brings you some sort of connection to a community you might not have been connected to, or even like a yearning to be there. So there's something kind of deeply poetic about it. And I think when we've kind of put our heads down and say, Well, you gotta comply with this and this and this and whatever, like, you know, and like all the different departments say that, we lose sight of how beautiful and how awesome this process really is. And we used to have that. I think that's the kind of beauty of American cities, of small town, like you know, small town USA, Ann Arbor, Michigan, Kent, Ohio, where I went to school. Like there's this beauty of a small main street in these little storefronts because it just connects to, you know, people making it for themselves, starting businesses, living, you know, living amongst the town, socializing, these third spaces, all these concepts that we always talk about. But I think we, like you said, we've really kind of gotten in our own way with trying to regulate that growth and with you know the the built environment as it is today. Yeah, just really just making it easier and making it fun. I think that's a really good way of putting it. It should be a fun process, a rewarding process.
SPEAKER_01Okay, so now to play devil's advocate, because like we could talk to each other about this all day. Like you're definitely an architect, because I I joke that like one of the qualifications of being an architect, like it's it's the extra exam nobody tells you about is you got to be able to talk for an hour about absolutely nothing alone. Oh, yeah. Use the word juxtaposition.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Yep.
SPEAKER_01Waxing poetics about our favorite designers. Okay, but but um, okay, so so zooming it back out here. I asked you a very specific question. I said, like, if I come to you with a building permit, how is this process different? And if you would have answered out the gate to make buildings more fun, I would have like, I would have just started throwing tomatoes, right? Like that's not what people want to hear. You were prepared with a very direct answer. What you told me was so where we left off was we've exposed the problem in the process to the person that needs to address it. Now you've added your direct response to my question was you get support because the people who are accountable are held accountable. And so now you're not quarterbacking your own project. You feel supported by people handing you down the pipeline as you get closer to your end goal. And now, like the cities there cheering you on as you cross the finish line. Because you are now we can step back and say, because we're trying to make building fun again, because it is a fun process. Like all of the home builders who finished their house, and I do mean finished, because there's a lot of abandoned foundations around town right now on infill lots, because this process is brutal in Detroit. It is actively hostile to the people who want to come here and build a house. We have forgotten how to do that. I'm not speaking for Cleveland, speaking for my process in the city of Detroit. And so we're known locally as like, we're the crazy people. We are we are the early adopters, if you will. You know, like we put our flag in the ground when things were rough and we persevered, but we had to get really creative in order to do that. And so you are changing that narrative by saying, we also want to see you complete these interesting and unique homes. And here's how we're gonna help you do that so that this process becomes fun again. All right. Well, now I really want to turn the conversation a bit more towards um the construction of these homes because you touched on something where we're still doing it the old way. Uh boy, we sure are. I have a caricature of this that I joke on is like I've I've boiled it down to like we're still smacking sticks together with rock to frame home. Like since the invention of the water-powered sawmill and the collated nail, we have built homes exactly the same, except for our nails have gotten worse. Well, our nails have gotten better, but the production, the mass production has made them now worse. Everything's gotten more expensive, and the wood we use is trash because we didn't manage our forests, and now we grow new growth way too quickly, and you can't find a straight two by four. So I know for a fact that you and I both are exploring these. I touched a little bit earlier on this conversation on shipping containers because that's often one of the first things that the internet loves to bring up about alternative construction. And boy, do I have experience in those. I've built over 40 container projects across the United States and internationally. Um, they're fun, they're wacky, they're whimsical, right? But like if you want to mess with containers, you better know the basics of architecture, or you're gonna make a big mess. And a lot of people have tried and failed, and there's some base understanding you got to know going into that. Um, as with modular, as with panelized constructions. So, first, from a city perspective, not just you, but your your cohort, like how are you receiving on the city end alternative construction styles? And I guess what is important to you guys as you're looking at construction styles? Is it like the actual approvals and testing ratings? Is it just the sniff test? I want to know what these are, I want to see them. Like, what's important to you as you're looking at, hey, we're looking for the solution out of stick building. We all know, again, starting with the understanding on both sides, it's too expensive and it's not as good as it used to be. So if I say we can't build it like we used to, right, what do we do now?
SPEAKER_00Great question. And I know uh I've actually been kind of more on the periphery personally with this. I think this is even maybe before my time. I know the city had here in Cleveland, um, they put out like an RFQ for modular builders and and um had some like you know, demo sample homes or some test homes. And actually, I believe they're bringing in a modular builder that that you know is relocating to Cleveland and they've kind of worked out a deal with that. But um tons of incentive, tons of interest. And I think the like the city of Cleveland has really, as far as I've can observe, really taken an interest in in exploring these new models. Um, there have been a handful of modular homes built in Cleveland. I I know that they're more coming. And um the state of Ohio, they have like an I and it's called that the building code is specifies it as an industrialized unit. So the state board of building standards or whatever regulatory body um reviews you know those modular plans will then basically approve them, close that, send it to us. And once we see that, we see that it's been reviewed, you know, based on the state building code, and we just basically look at any local ordinances or other you know, other things that we have to look at, our zoning codes and whatnot. And then it's it's kind of good to go. So from a city standpoint, tons of incentive. I think the bigger push I would say, or the bigger kind of uphill battle for lack of a better term, is is is just the market in terms of both you know consumers and installers. I think every the reason stick built homes prevail is because everyone knows how to do it for the most part, everyone can price it out, and it's available everywhere.
SPEAKER_01You know, everybody's been doing it for the last you know 35 years of their career. Why, why change it up now?
SPEAKER_00My dad taught me this, or my mentor taught me this. Unknown risks, right? Yeah, exactly. And it's like the most like hum-ho type of building because again, everyone knows how to do it, even if you know the quality, and you're right, the quality is has gone down, boards are skewed, all this other stuff. Um, but it's just it's just the you know, this, this, the standard, it's the you know, the kind of standard of our day. So I'm wondering.
SPEAKER_01Universal standard, whether like we could unpack how we got there in this country and why the rest of the world kind of laughs at us when our houses burn down because like they heard the three little pigs and built masonry buildings everywhere else. That's right. We couldn't afford it and we had trees, right? So there's the quick version. Um, and every big box store in our country supports this construction type, so it's not a scary new thing you can trust that if something goes wrong, you can go to high or lows and likely fix it or manage yourself.
SPEAKER_00And it's it's forgiving too. I think that's that's the you know, as an architect, right? And as an architect, it's it's my my thing is you know, comfortable, safe, forgiving, risk-free. Well, not only that, but in in yeah, absolutely that. But in addition to that, in Cleveland, when you have old wonky homes and a wall that's bowing out and something that's not square, and you try to, you know, how do you rehab that? How do you put an addition on that? How do you reframe that? Like would kind of give wood frame homes and buildings, give you that opportunity to almost sculpt rather than um you know plugging something in that has to work perfectly with like minimal tolerances, just big picture. So, but I I that's that's kind of the the crux of you know, my what keeps me up at night is like do we how where do we go from here? Absolutely. You know, what do we build with next?
SPEAKER_01What do we build with that? So as a city, you guys are open as long as it's as long as it's meeting those requirements and you can apply it to like a code, like we can follow, like, hey, this is how this building stands up. This is why it is protecting the health, safety, and welfare of the users and the occupants. Right. Um, and from my perspective, like I am, I mean, an architect whose gun shy around fire conversations, go figure. But like that's always been like there's there's no question you follow from like the war on stairs that's starting in Chicago right now, all the way to you know, the the civil conversations that we're having, the discourse among users and occupants, like more stairs, more hallways didn't save lives. You know what saved lives? Sprinklers. Sprinklers save lives in residential construction. And now we're coming to terms with that. Like, hey, the technology of these systems advanced faster than the building materials. So we can actually solve this problem differently, and everybody's agreeing with that. So these are these are some of the biggest changes that have occurred in my career as an architect, specifically to housing. And that happens to be the category of architecture that I focus on the most, that Three Squared has um has focused on the most because of because of our location, because of the work that we do here in Detroit and Ohio and the Midwest. It's it's everybody's kind of learning these lessons together. And I would say from uh from an outsider's perspective, Cleveland is uh kudos to you guys. You guys are very forward thinking. A lot of things are happening. I know people who have done sip panels there. I know people who have done um like foam buildings, steel reinforced foam buildings over there. Um I I know the masonry uh has made a splash. So on top of like just uh we say alternative construction, that's also like the whole building science of things from the outside to the inside. Like there's also like the the small versions of this that come across your desk every day where it's like a new siding product or a new ventilation application that oh, like we didn't see that. And then you tie those into the mechanical systems. Oh, here we are, full circle, admitting that this is a very complicated puzzle involving a lot of moving pieces.
SPEAKER_00Yes, yep. It's an assembly. It's not, you know, just like we say about walls and floors and roofs, it's a it's an assembly, the term that architects use. It's an assembly of details. And I think it's the same way in permitting, it's the same way in in the project team. It's all this like layering. And I think, you know, once we start, it's easy to look at a building a house and say, that's the object, that's the thing, you know, that I'm looking at. But when you kind of break it apart and you look at the details in the drawings and you look at the details of the actual assemblies, like I said, and you look at the details of the lists of the contractors and their you know teams that put these things together and the and the the dozens of people at the city that helped to push it through, you're right. That's that is essentially it's a layer of of of of people, of things, of of assemblies.
SPEAKER_01So so I'm I'm looking for the term, and uh and and I'll tell you where I'm at on it, but I'm looking for the term that encapsulates this whole process that is inclusive of the vanguard of pre-construction and tax understanding all the way to appraisal and long-term occupancy. Like, what are we talking about? I like I believe it's not designing buildings, it's not developing infill. It's like we are talking about the building delivery system from start to finish. And I think that's inclusive of like how much can we build off the site and deliver it to a job site while everyone still feels comfortable with their approval part of the process, right? Modular's gonna play a big role in the conversation moving forward, housing coming out of factories in part or in whole. It's a big part of this conversation. Um, I think this is all inclusive, though, and it can't be isolated just to this factory. Like it's one piece of like the things that happen under that ground on the site are right just as complicated and sometimes just as expensive as the building that sits on top of it, you know?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and I will say, oh, go ahead. I'm sorry.
SPEAKER_01Well, just that's where I leave off is like uh the the coining term that I'm searching for is that maybe it's a building delivery system, maybe it's not, but like that you get what I'm trying to do with that.
SPEAKER_00And I think I think what I always what I always turn to again as an architect and just someone interested in building typologies is precedence, as as the school, as you as a professor would would tell your students, like what are the precedence studies? And for me, it it goes back to typology. Like, let's take my fascination. I know this is a goofy fascination, but like big box stores and the advent of that. It's like, you know, that was something that was coined, you know, Midwest, Detroit, Cleveland, anywhere in Ohio or Michigan is like the quintessential space for a we have sprawling land, we have flat land off of highways we can build. And so like there was a problem, and then someone executed, like I think a genius but sill, like silly, like stupidly silly solution in a way, where there were you know multiple shops and little mom and pop shops around a city, and it was hard with the advent of the comp of the car, which I don't love, of course, as an architect, um, to get around to all these shops, and you have to drive to your pharmacy and then your grocery store and then your supermarket, whatever, to get all your stuff. And all that stuff would come from different warehouses and from different manufacturers, so it's the same layering system. And someone, you know, one day, I believe it was Sears, um, I kind of had this idea of like, okay, if people are driving in cars now, which again, crappy history there, but regardless, um, everyone's driving in cars. Um, we have all these like different warehouses that people go to these different stores for. Can we just like make a system where everything is both at the same time in a warehouse and a store? And then that was like that bombshell moment where we basically just like completely layered all these things together and like everything was nestled together. And like I want to rep my my point of that backstory is like, how can we replicate that with housing and I guess solving the housing affordability crisis is instead of looking at these elements in a vacuum, well, I gotta get to get the get the land and I gotta get the repeated materials and gotta assemble my team and get the permits. And it's like like I go back to the term quarterbacking the project. How do we just streamline it so it's like this all people will always find it the masses will find it easier for an all-inclusive option? That's why everyone, myself included, love Costco, love whatever, you know, whatever. Like, yes, you go, you go to the little mom and pop stores for the experience, but like when push comes to shove, if you need stuff, you go there, you go to Walmart or Target or whatever's available to you. I'm not necessarily advocating for like standardized standardizing things, but like I guess just that mindset. How do we how do we see this uh array, this like massive table full of issues and consolidate them into one thing? You know, whether it's assembling, what in my mind, it's like can we do a a land bank lot and a pre-approved plan and also connect the builder?
SPEAKER_01I have a short list of builders here at the city that we pre-vetted and say you want to build who have worked with banks who are willing to pre-approve based on those rules, who can look at the energy use of the life cycle of the building and maybe potentially wrap that into the financing conversation. Yes.
SPEAKER_00Right now it's on the builder.
SPEAKER_01That's that yeah, you're we're on to something. And on the big box thing, like I smell a future podcast episode. So as we wrap up the conversation today, Zach, this has been this has been absolutely phenomenal. I'm so excited. Um, all the topics that we've touched on here, something that's come back up from your perspective has been your look at the market, which I will admit is is refreshing. Um, so explain to me more about your thought process as you're coming to the table from both sides of the fence. You keep mentioning the market. Explain to me your thought process what that means. Leave our audience with some like some some hanging thoughts here.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Well, uh, for better or for worse, and I have, you know, everyone has their criticisms of of the political systems and the way that this works. That's how things get built. You know, things have to pencil financially. And in architecture school, we would we would throw around ideas of projects move as fast as money moves. Right. And and it's like not just not only is it like the design that you have, you know, but it's like, you know, we would design stuff in school in an area where it just like none of it made any sense like financially. It's like this would never actually, this could never occur to you.
SPEAKER_01You're talking like in a in architecture or school, like design studios, like throwing off the wall stuff that we know because we were designing, we were designing uh without a budget, right? There were the real world layers weren't there. We were only looking at one little stack in that big complicated book.
SPEAKER_00Correct, but not not only on like a oh, like you know, we're gonna put a you know massive porcelain wall and you know, whatever, whatever you know, crazy thing, not only from like a design or aesthetic standpoint, but just like the projects themselves. And it was, don't get me wrong, wonderful design exercises, very necessary for students learning the process. But I guess what I would like to leave you with is that's how things get built. Things have to make sense to everyone involved, for the architect preparing the plans, for the developer doing it. That you'd be surprised at how many things fall through because you know they didn't make sense, right? Right, they didn't make sense, but also we have to keep in mind we can't let this become a race to the bottom. I think that's that's that is like an unfortunate truth of yeah, I guess you want to call it capitalism or the current kind of like you know, late-stage capitalism people that there is like this kind of race to the bottom. Um, you know, like just look at the example of studs. It's like who can make studs, who can, who can fabricate or you know, to generate wood from a mill as quickly and as cheaply as possible, and it's like everyone's kind of competing their way down. Um, so it's something I always grapple with too. It's like how do we combine all these things and look at all, like you said, these layers, but also develop projects that will work, basically. Because we can we can generate as cool as many cool renderings and as many awesome site plans that we've had, we've had dozens of on our north coast of Lake Erie, tons of awesome site plans with hotels and pools and public parks and beaches on the lake right in front of downtown, and it looks awesome. But Mike, even with the Brown City and Venus, is another contested conversation that off the record, you know, like not affiliated with the city, just my own personal thoughts, you know, that's a big conversation. But the reason that we keep recycling through these plans, in my opinion, is that like is the market? Is like what is the market? What is the demand? What where is the population to support these awesome looking facilities? How are we gonna build 10 13-story you know apartment buildings on the north coast if you know we don't have the population to support? Like, what is gonna fill these places? Who's gonna do performing the upkeep? Who's gonna support the small businesses moving in and the the taco stand and the restaurant and the steakhouse that we're proposing there? How is this all gonna work? So that's just like the kind of network of the market that's in my mind. I'm always trying to assess more beyond, oh, this would be cool here, because that's like the classic, very just like you say, bringing back the shipping containers. It's very easy. Here's a enclosure that's available, let's do it. Like that's that's the A to B to C thought process that people have. Like this is this will solve the housing crisis. Like we have these things that we can just plop on a site and live in. Well, no, maybe, but like you said, you really have to architect your way around it and reinforce it and insulate it and all this other stuff, and really, and at that point you're picking it apart where you're like, why didn't I just go back to the like the conversation of stick framing? So, same thing with the market is like how do we actually go beyond just this would be cool here, or we, you know, the disgruntled Facebook comment of we need more of this, or we need another park here, or we need more shopping centers here, or whatever. We you know, but how do we actually make it work and develop a model and a pro forma that like will work? And that's I guess I what I what I try to connect with some of my architect colleagues is you know, will this work? Is this pencil? Does it hold water? So that's kind of what's always floating around my mind in terms of the market, I would say.
SPEAKER_01Well, one of our core values at three squared is design what works.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, there you go.
SPEAKER_01And how that holds a lot of meaning as you just unpacked. Well, Zach, in our in our short time that that I've gotten to know you, I I I can attest you are you're good people, man. I I really appreciate the mindset that you're coming to on this because it's it's big picture, but you're you're bringing a realist perspective to a conversation filled with pessimists and optimists. Uh, what I what I heard you say was like I hear it all the time from my client side of the fence, which is like, if we build it, they will come. Um, horrible mindset. And cities have learned better over the years. And you're not saying like I'm saying this is a bad idea or I'm a nasal. You're saying, like, hey, you should fact check this because I want this to be supported, but this only works if people are living here and using it the way the renderings say, and like, have we fact checked this? Um, and I just man, that's wonderful. That's wonderful. And I I I'm really excited to open up this conversation. I mean, today we've covered everything from carefully dancing with the word big scary word deregulation to talking about uh exposing the issues, providing a pathway of support and accountability that really gives some agency and ownership back to people who are self-developing their like forever homes, their dreams, um, and making this whole process fun again. So we will absolutely return to the table uh again soon in future conversations. But Zach Miller, everybody, thank you for joining us today.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, thank you. Thank you so much, Breck. And I really look forward to continuing the conversation. Sorry if I talked your ear off, but I really get like as you can tell, I get piped up about these things. So I appreciate you giving me some time to this is perfect.
SPEAKER_01Sometimes we have three hosts, sometimes we have two hosts, sometimes we have one host. But it's it's all contingent on the conversations we expect. And uh two two architects in a room. That's a lot of personality, as we know. It's been a lot of fun. Um, but good collaborators. Uh, I mean, I think people with your personality type and your communication style are uniquely suited to be on both sides of the fence because you really are bringing a lot to the table. And uh what can I say? Cleveland is lucky to have you on their team.
SPEAKER_00Thank you, Brock. I really appreciate that.
SPEAKER_01This has been innovative real estate with three squared in cam, and we will see you next time. Thanks, everybody.